Hopbot log for 2007-11-21 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2007-11-21:

[4:00] <philmaker> @ kuccello & zumbrunn - thanks for the advice about Prototype/jQuery. I'll be using probably an ExtJS/JQuery combo - I quickly quickly scraped that sample code together for an AJAX example I'm putting together for the Helma site. Probably less dependecies the better maybe. But I will be using some js lib
[6:02] <bslivka> Having a bit of difficulty with java packages
[6:03] <bslivka> suppose I wanted to use apple's cocoa classes from helma
[6:03] <bslivka> Helma requires that jars be in lib/ext
[6:03] <bslivka> the apple libraries are only .class files
[6:03] <bslivka> putting the class files in lib/ext doesn't seem to work
[6:04] <bslivka> nor does adding a classpath argument in start.sh
[6:04] <bslivka> I'm sure I'm doing something monumentally wrong here, but I don't know what the right thing is.
[6:12] <bslivka> hi
[6:12] <jadon> hello
[6:13] <jadon> Do you have any familiarity with how to call macros of other HopObjects besides 'this' or 'root'?
[6:14] <jadon> I was thinking that I wanted to use a User object macro to present status on the current session's user information.
[6:14] <bslivka> Oof that's a good question. Really if you need a macro in more than one place, you should put it in the global object
[6:14] <jadon> I thought I could do something like <% User.login %> to show the login state.
[6:14] <bslivka> or in a prototype that gets extended by all the objects that need to use it
[6:15] <jadon> okay, I can just move it to Global, but that seems ugly to me.
[6:15] <bslivka> Let me have a look around
[6:15] <jadon> I'd rather each of my HopObjects to be rather self-contained.
[6:16] <jadon> These particular macros would depend on the User HopObject.
[6:16] <jadon> (which is fetched using session.user)
[6:18] <jadon> btw, I'd also like to learn some simple tasks I can take to contribute to the project. The more I play with Helma, I think it'll work out. It isn't perfect and I keep finding warts, but the warts have been small and relatively easy to change my point of view around to avoid.
[6:19] <jadon> I also hang out on this channel at times as 'jkridner'.
[6:19] <bslivka> Oh right, so you and I have met before
[6:19] <jadon> yes.
[6:19] <jadon> I just have a machine at work that is currently logged into freenode as 'jkridner', so I had to use another alias. :)
[6:20] <bslivka> I remember seeing a page that explained helma macrosx
[6:20] <bslivka> but I can't seem to find it now
[6:21] <jadon> I find the most useful docs on http://helma.zumbrunn.com
[6:23] <jadon> http://helma.org/docs/guide/introductions/macros/ seems to be the general introduction.
[6:23] <philmaker> Hello folks
[6:24] <jadon> I tried: res.handlers.user = root.User;
[6:24] <jadon> then <% user.login %> in my skin.
[6:24] <jadon> hi philmaker
[6:24] <philmaker> I'm a Helma newbie - really just saying hello.
[6:25] <jadon> I'm pretty close to a newbie myself.
[6:25] <philmaker> But I'm also a Mac user - so that's cool.
[6:25] <bslivka> http://helma.org/docs/guide/introductions/macros/
[6:25] <bslivka> err
[6:25] <bslivka> wrong one
[6:25] <bslivka> http://helma.org/docs/guide/framework/#actionskins
[6:25] <philmaker> not sure if I can help bslivka
[6:26] <bslivka> The framework page seems to deal with macros in a bit more detail
[6:26] <philmaker> I've only been working with Helma for a couple of days - mainly been chatting with Chrisoph...
[6:26] <jadon> i read that one, which is where I got the idea that I could add to the macro namespace by setting res.handlers.
[6:26] <jadon> I haven't met Chrioph yet.
[6:27] <jadon> I've been playing with Helma part-time for about 3 weeks now.
[6:27] <philmaker> Do either of you really understand HopObjects?
[6:27] <bslivka> I've been playing with helma for a few weeks myself. Then I got a job specifically in helma programmming
[6:27] <jadon> My biggest accomplishment was getting openid4java to allow me to authenticate some users...
[6:27] <philmaker> It's seems to me that they are really geared toward content/CMS
[6:27] <jadon> but, i'm still having some session problems.
[6:27] <bslivka> I am officially a professional helma dev
[6:28] <jadon> great.
[6:28] <philmaker> e.g. mapping a token of a URL to persistent application-wide/shared data
[6:28] <bslivka> I mostly get hopobjects
[6:29] <bslivka> The idea is that you're publishing an object graph rather than a filesystem graph
[6:29] <jadon> I think I understand the basics of persistence now, but the details of the macro/action name spaces are a mystery to me. It seems like those could be easily documented if they were stable.
[6:29] <bslivka> Kind of representing application state in the URL space
[6:30] <bslivka> very RESTy
[6:30] <philmaker> For example, if a user posts user-spectific data to a URL, the the HopObject data has nothing to do with the HopObject which is handling the page request
[6:30] <philmaker> So in this sort of example, the multi-faceted nature of HopObjects does not help
[6:30] <philmaker> but you are citing: application state
[6:31] <jadon> in the skins, you seem to be executing within an instance of the HopObject where renderSkin was called, is that right?
[6:31] <philmaker> not session/user state
[6:31] <philmaker> I guess I need to read up on REST
[6:32] <philmaker> what do either of you do with post data when you receieve it?
[6:32] <philmaker> especially if it is private user data?
[6:32] <jadon> you can use it to edit the current HopObject or to create a new one.
[6:33] <jadon> there is session state that can be used to be aware of the current user.
[6:33] <philmaker> session.user
[6:33] <jadon> exactly.
[6:34] <bslivka> It depends on the situation.
[6:34] <philmaker> My point is that the HopObject which handles the page request in this case is not the same HopObject you would store/perists the post data into.. Correct?
[6:34] <jadon> in my application, I'm concerned with changing the state of the session based on posted data, including changing the state of session.user.
[6:34] <bslivka> Typically what you do with user information is determine whether the user can see certain objects or not
[6:35] <jadon> philmaker, I believe the addressbook example does post to the target HopObject as well as to a parent HopObject.
[6:36] <philmaker> But if the root HopObject is shared among all requests - you don't want to store user data in that chain right?
[6:36] <jadon> the target in the case of edits and the parent in the case of creation, but I wasn't paying that much attention a the time (didn't know what to be observing).
[6:36] <jadon> I'd guess you wouldn't want to write user data into that object, but you can write it into the User HopObject.
[6:37] <jadon> actually, that is part of the question I came here to ask...
[6:37] <jadon> I have the Root as my handling HopObject...
[6:37] <jadon> but, I want to return information relative to the current user.
[6:38] <jadon> I haven't figured out how to do that.
[6:39] <philmaker> session.user is the user's hopobject
[6:39] <jadon> I can access the user data from the action, but I haven't figured out how to do it from the macros within the skin.
[6:39] <philmaker> and plug that data into a skin
[6:39] <philmaker> I think - still new
[6:39] <bslivka> I think I worked it out.
[6:39] <jadon> well, I can get to session.user from the root hopobject action.
[6:40] <jadon> but, I haven't figured out how to get to macros in that hopobject from the skin.
[6:40] <bslivka> res.handlers.User = root.User
[6:41] <bslivka> then that will give you access to macros defined on the User prototype
[6:41] <bslivka> in theory
[6:41] <jadon> I still get "[Unhandled Macro: User.login]"
[6:42] <bslivka> But then, that's the User collection...
[6:42] <bslivka> What you want is the *current* user
[6:42] <philmaker> have you called session.login() already?
[6:43] <philmaker> (all I can thin of to offer) - without it no user exists
[6:43] <jadon> yes, I've already called session.login(), but I think I can use the macros from just the prototype.
[6:43] <bslivka> res.handlers.User = session.User
[6:43] <bslivka> maybe that will work
[6:44] <bslivka> since that is a reference to an actual instance object
[6:45] <philmaker> Re: but, I want to return information relative to the current user. - I am interest in whether the URL scheme is resolvable to a user from the root chain.
[6:46] <bslivka> application/User/Username
[6:46] <bslivka> quite simple
[6:46] <bslivka> all you have to do is add User to the type.properties of root
[6:46] <jadon> I tried several more variations, but I'm not seeing res.handlers get set right.
[6:46] <philmaker> Re: application/User/Username - so do you just need to have the User prototyoe _extends the Root prototype for that to work?
[6:46] <jadon> writeln(res.handlers); --> prints --> {root=[object Root], Root=[object Root]}
[6:47] <philmaker> Re: all you have to do is add User to the type.properties of root Gotcha - thought so
[6:47] <jadon> code is
[6:47] <jadon> res.handlers["User"] = session.user;
[6:47] <jadon> writeln(res.handlers);
[6:47] <philmaker> I have not seen that documented anywhere
[6:48] <jadon> writeln?
[6:48] <bslivka> that'll be in rhino
[6:48] <bslivka> i think
[6:52] <bslivka> it could be that session.user is not defined
[6:53] <jadon> so, is it essentially true that the URL represents the HopObject servicing the request and typically being "read", whereas the HopObject being written is often totally different?
[6:53] <jadon> how do I just reference the prototype?
[6:53] <bslivka> the prototype is a property of the global object
[6:54] <bslivka> so just 'User' refers to the prototype
[6:54] <bslivka> rather, the constructor
[6:55] <jadon> even if session.user == null, shouldn't it show up in the res.handlers printout as User=null?
[6:56] <jadon> ah, hah!
[6:56] <jadon> res.handlers.User = new User();
[6:56] <bslivka> that would work. but is it the current user?
[6:57] <philmaker> please tell me this is in the manual
[6:57] <philmaker> somewhere
[6:58] <jadon> that one wouldn't be, but I was just trying to make sure I could get to the macros in the object.
[6:59] <jadon> I found it in examples, such as http://helma.org/stories/77578/
[7:01] * zumbrunn needs a cup of coffee first
[7:02] <philmaker> woot
[7:11] <jadon> well, that one problem is half solved. It seems I can set res.handlers["User"] to an instance of the User HopObject and make use of User.* macros. I'll get to the bug that my current implementation created on tomorrow.
[7:29] <philmaker> In the User dir->type.properties, if I insert "_extends = Root"... will a HopObject chain be created per user which mirrors the expected Root HopObject chain?
[7:31] <zumbrunn> no, User wouldn't inherit properties from the root object, if that is what you mean...
[7:31] <philmaker> Because: I'm having trouble fathoming urls such as /User1/first/second/third/ instead of /first/second/third/
[7:31] <zumbrunn> it would inherit from the Root prototype
[7:31] <zumbrunn> by default, User extends HopObject
[7:33] <zumbrunn> _children = collection(User)
[7:33] <zumbrunn> ...in Root/type.properties
[7:34] <zumbrunn> https://dev.helma.org/trac/helma/browser/apps/welcome/trunk/code/HopObject/type.properties
[7:34] <philmaker> For example: if this url represents the user Tobi, how does it know how to render? http://dev.helma.org/config/users/tobi/
[7:35] <philmaker> Or is this unrelated from the user HopObject?
[7:35] <zumbrunn> https://dev.helma.org/trac/helma/browser/apps/gobi/trunk/code/User
[7:36] <zumbrunn> in the case of gobi (dev.helma.org), User extends Page
[7:36] <philmaker> thanks
[7:37] <philmaker> Are User HopObjects servable or not?
[7:37] <zumbrunn> yes, they are
[7:38] <zumbrunn> whether you want to directly serve them or keep them behind the sciences is a design decision
[7:38] <zumbrunn> (of your app, not of Helma)
[7:38] <philmaker> how to serve?
[7:38] <philmaker> right
[7:39] <zumbrunn> see above...
[7:40] <zumbrunn> for example by adding _children = collection(User) to Root/type.properties
[7:40] <zumbrunn> and _children.accessname = name
[7:41] <zumbrunn> depending on which user property you want to use as the access name in the url
[7:42] <philmaker> and then primary content/actions, etc belong inside the User dir instead of inside root?
[7:42] <zumbrunn> right
[7:44] <zumbrunn> Root only defines special features of the root object anyway
[7:44] <zumbrunn> no other objects inherit from Root
[7:44] <zumbrunn> the kind of the inheritance chain is HopObject, not Root
[7:45] <zumbrunn> err.. *the king*
[7:45] <philmaker> thanks Christoph - I have been getting hung up on this
[7:46] <philmaker> perhaps unnecessarily
[7:46] <philmaker> I created an account on http://www.diigo.com to try to annotate the existing Helma docs for improvement
[7:46] <philmaker> I've made little progress
[7:47] <philmaker> the kind of the inheritance chain is HopObject, not Root - I understand
[7:47] <zumbrunn> you should be able to add comments anywhere, pertty much, I think
[7:47] <philmaker> that's a good point
[7:47] <zumbrunn> so, where you think the docs are unclear, just add a comment
[7:48] <zumbrunn> I'll remove comments as the issues they raise are resolved
[7:48] <philmaker> cool
[7:48] <philmaker> the diigo thing is too much work anyway
[7:48] <philmaker> I used it a little before
[7:49] <philmaker> but it is cool
[7:49] <zumbrunn> yep
[7:49] <philmaker> everytime we chat you are just waking and I am about to sleep.
[7:50] <philmaker> So sorry if I am dense.
[7:50] <zumbrunn> the wonders of caffein ;-)
[7:51] <zumbrunn> for pages where you can't comment (like the welcome app) just post your comment here or on the mailing list
[7:56] <philmaker> I think your work with OpenMocha and also Gobi are cool.
[7:57] <philmaker> I like being able to edit via the web. I can do that with Gobi and I have seen your Settings page.
[8:07] <zumbrunn> just read your mail about OpenMocha...
[8:08] <zumbrunn> ..."I do understand "reduce to the max" I think. E.g. Only define what you need to define and everything else just works or extends or defaults by convention. "...
[8:08] <zumbrunn> I like that!
[8:08] <zumbrunn> my understanding of "reduce to the max" reduced to the maximum :-)
[8:31] <zumbrunn> I just realized that we could pretty easily generate the docs for the core environment directly from the java source files, instead of having to maintain the dummy reference source files
[8:31] <zumbrunn> something to keep in mind for the future, anyway
[8:32] <zumbrunn> jsdoc-toolkit could handle that, I think
[8:32] <zumbrunn> with just minimal need for some custom tags in the javadoc comments of the java source files
[8:38] <philmaker> Yesterday I mentioned servlet filters and you mentioned getChildElement().
[8:39] <zumbrunn> yep
[8:39] <philmaker> I'm trying to do something like this: http://dev.helma.org/wiki/Workspace/philmaker/philmaker%3A+Initial+Helma+Purpose%2C+Project/
[8:40] <philmaker> Basically: handle a request if a HopObject hierarchy does not actually exist in the first place to handle it.
[8:41] <zumbrunn> in that case using the "notfound" action is the better approach
[8:42] <zumbrunn> http://helma.org/docs/guide/properties/listall/
[8:42] <philmaker> cool - is that in Globa?
[8:43] <zumbrunn> Root
[8:43] <philmaker> Global?
[8:43] <philmaker> ok
[8:44] <philmaker> Chris, question for you. You can answer here or via email...
[8:45] <philmaker> What is your current job?
[8:45] <philmaker> Not making you an offer - but I'm just curious what you do..
[8:55] <zumbrunn> I'm self-employed
[8:55] <zumbrunn> have always been
[8:55] <zumbrunn> so, there are a lot of projects/customers that have accumulated over the years
[8:56] <philmaker> righto
[8:56] <zumbrunn> which means there is sometimes followup work from these legacy things
[8:57] <zumbrunn> but from the technical point of view, the focus looking forward is certainly centered around Helma
[8:57] <philmaker> The last major consulting work was Java Swing desktop work for a department at Sun. Bits and pieces since then. I'm currently focusing more on web development: such as Helma and ExtJS.
[8:57] <zumbrunn> it always has been centered around server-side javascript since 1997 or so
[8:58] <philmaker> cool
[9:00] <philmaker> I've done some Java server/servlets work - not a whole lot of client web work. It's sort of funny that I'm pretty much a desktop pro but for the client work work, I'm good with frameworks like ExtJS, etc but I still get hear questions like "do you know HTML?"
[9:00] <zumbrunn> with one leg I'm a bit in politics, as well
[9:01] <zumbrunn> thinking about founding a cooperative to reform the politics in switzerland a bit
[9:02] <zumbrunn> you could also call it "revolutionize" ;-)
[9:02] <zumbrunn> same thing
[9:02] <philmaker> Just now I translated a bit of czv - but I only glanced.
[9:05] <zumbrunn> maybe setting up a cooperative would also be something for helma
[9:05] <philmaker> I thought Switzerland was, like, Utopia on earth. What's happening in Switzerland?
[9:05] <zumbrunn> oh, it is to a large degree
[9:05] <philmaker> BTW, I do agree the sentiments on Bush and "THE WAR on TERROR"
[9:05] <zumbrunn> but some things threaten to go in a wrong direction
[9:06] <zumbrunn> and some things actually have gone in the wrong direction in the last 100-150 years
[9:06] <philmaker> I understand - hopefully it does not have anything to do with "the new world order"
[9:06] <philmaker> ah
[9:06] <philmaker> e.g. globalism
[9:07] <philmaker> what do you think about globalism?
[9:07] <zumbrunn> globalism is good
[9:07] <zumbrunn> but it has to be organized bottom up
[9:07] <zumbrunn> not from the top down
[9:07] <zumbrunn> like everything
[9:08] <philmaker> I think some people here fear globalism
[9:08] <zumbrunn> sure, for good reasons, too
[9:08] <philmaker> I'm kind of ambivalent about this topic
[9:08] <philmaker> ah - bottom up
[9:08] <zumbrunn> yep
[9:08] <philmaker> not forced
[9:08] <zumbrunn> yes
[9:09] <philmaker> I think/hope the internet will play a factor.
[9:09] <philmaker> You know iChat...
[9:09] <philmaker> Well, sometimes I send "Steve" random emails...
[9:09] <philmaker> just a couple
[9:09] <zumbrunn> hah!
[9:10] <philmaker> I sent him one about iChat and "When are you going to break the language barrier?"
[9:10] <philmaker> Meaning: I think the day we can have libe, accurate transation might be a good thing
[9:10] <philmaker> I know I'm a dork/silly
[9:10] <zumbrunn> the easiest way to break the language barrier is to learn english
[9:11] <philmaker> hehe
[9:11] <philmaker> live, accurate
[9:12] <zumbrunn> you could get funding from the EU for that
[9:12] <philmaker> Re: sure, for good reasons, too - you mean the standard of living in the US? Or what? Why should people in the US fear globalism.
[9:13] <philmaker> BTW, I'm all for "make trade fair" etc btw
[9:14] <zumbrunn> because with the current system, we are concentrating power more and more
[9:14] <zumbrunn> while the current technology would allow us to spread it more and more
[9:15] <philmaker> decentralization?
[9:15] <zumbrunn> right
[9:15] <zumbrunn> subsidiarity
[9:16] <zumbrunn> subsidiarity is the key
[9:17] <zumbrunn> central power and legislation should be provided as a service to the local communities
[9:17] <philmaker> this is a problem we have in the US'
[9:17] <zumbrunn> I know
[9:18] <philmaker> traditionally the Republican party has stood for small federal government. Now it seems like the war party.
[9:18] <zumbrunn> exactly, in the last 100-150 years left and right got all twisted around
[9:19] <zumbrunn> and around, and around again
[9:19] <philmaker> http://ronpaulnation/ is what we need here in the US. He is a true Republican, even Libertarian
[9:19] <philmaker> he is picking up traction but he is still an underdog
[9:20] <zumbrunn> a major problem in the US is the two party system
[9:20] <zumbrunn> hard to break that
[9:20] <philmaker> Here in the US, I've heard that 40-50 years ago the Democrat party was the most conservative part - now it is Republican - so I know what you mean
[9:21] <philmaker> I alot of people here think it is really screwy that we two dominant parties
[9:21] <philmaker> right
[9:22] <philmaker> Because of that - probably GDI is best - god damn independent
[9:22] <philmaker> or : independent is you prefer
[9:22] <philmaker> -)
[9:22] <philmaker> ;-)
[9:22] <zumbrunn> one simple solution would be to allow candidates to endorse other candidates (and stay in the race)
[9:23] <philmaker> how would that work?
[9:23] <philmaker> (signing off shortly...)
[9:23] <zumbrunn> the candidate with more votes would get the votes from the candidate with less votes
[9:26] <zumbrunn> by the way, it's remarkable how similar the concepts of direct democracy politics and open source software development and licensing are
[9:26] <philmaker> What is the world's or your understanding of why the US creating war? Revenge for Bush sr, petrodollar, pipelines, occupation, globalism?
[9:26] <philmaker> yep
[9:28] <zumbrunn> imperialism
[9:28] <zumbrunn> I think it's mainly due to a misjudgment by the US how the US and its actions are seen by others
[9:29] <philmaker> I have a friend who thinks we are occupying Iraq to spread goodness and to help the people of Iraq. But in that case I say what do we get out of it?
[9:29] <zumbrunn> of course, it's probably a mix of many things
[9:29] <zumbrunn> but at the root, I think there is an imperialistic attitude
[9:29] <philmaker> uh oh, it's 3am and there's someone knocking at my door.
[9:30] <philmaker> There're coming for me.
[9:30] <philmaker> jk
[9:30] <philmaker> just kidding
[9:30] <zumbrunn> an attitude that others perceive as imperialistic even though it isn't intended that way
[9:30] <zumbrunn> hehe
[9:30] <philmaker> I do think this is a problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac
[9:31] <zumbrunn> right
[9:31] <philmaker> (btw I do know how to spell - just not type)
[9:33] <philmaker> here is an interesting picture I found tonight: it's Papa Bush, Cheney, and the King of Saudi Arabia
[9:33] <philmaker> http://www.evworld.com/blogs/images/abdullah_cheney.jpg
[9:34] <philmaker> Bush senior had been out of office for at least 10 years when this picture was taken. But not sure when this picture was taken.
[9:35] <zumbrunn> in the immediate circle around bush and cheney, the factors you mention are key, of course
[9:35] <philmaker> can just tell based on aging and circumstance
[9:37] <philmaker> Re: but at the root, I think there is an imperialistic attitude
[9:38] <philmaker> there is a distinction between leadership and dominance
[9:38] <philmaker> e.g. "The PNAC's stated goal is to promote American global leadership." @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pnac
[9:40] <philmaker> I'll try to read up on your czv pages about your politics. I am interested.
[9:40] <philmaker> I am signing off.
[9:40] <philmaker> peace out
[9:41] <zumbrunn> we don't need leadership from the top down either
[9:41] <zumbrunn> leadership can be bottom up as well
[9:41] <zumbrunn> that's what direct democracy is all about
[9:41] <zumbrunn> :-)
[9:43] <philmaker> And I'll leave you with a simple quite on leadership:
[9:43] <philmaker> "Leadership: the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it."
[9:43] <philmaker> - - Dwight D. Eisenhower
[9:45] <zumbrunn> in other words... "the art of brain washing"
[11:10] <bslivka> hello
[11:11] <zumbrunn> hi
[11:11] <bslivka> I have a question! I asked it earlier but it got swept aside fairly quick...
[11:12] <bslivka> It's about helma's integration with Java-
[11:12] <bslivka> I'm trying to use Apple's cocoa libraries, but it's not working because I'm monumentally inept at java
[11:12] <bslivka> I know you can add jar files to the class path by just putting them in the ext dir
[11:13] <bslivka> but the cocoa libs are all .class
[11:13] <zumbrunn> I thought you should be able to access classes if they are in the CLASSPATH
[11:13] <zumbrunn> they don't need to be in ./lib/ext
[11:13] <zumbrunn> that doesn't work?
[11:14] <bslivka> No apparently not- but it's really difficult to tell because of the somewhat bad design of javascript's java access.
[11:14] <bslivka> if it doesn't exist, it's a java package, not an error
[11:14] <zumbrunn> right, I noticed that too
[11:14] <zumbrunn> annoying
[11:15] <bslivka> It's explained somewhat in david flanagan's book as to why, but that's beside the point.
[11:15] <zumbrunn> can't you make a proper jar file from the class files you have?
[11:15] <bslivka> Wait a second... is that how it works? Are the class files source code?
[11:16] <zumbrunn> not source code
[11:16] <zumbrunn> but basically "unpackaged jars"
[11:21] <bslivka> I suppose I really should learn some java
[11:21] <bslivka> at least the basics
[11:25] <zumbrunn> I never tried using directly class files in ./lib/ext
[11:26] <zumbrunn> so, I'm not sure whether that should work
[11:26] <bslivka> It would seem that to use cocoa in java, normally you execute java with a -classpath pointed at /system/library/java
[11:26] <zumbrunn> I guess one way of trying would be to take a jar that you know works and unzip it
[11:26] <bslivka> Which I suppose is a different classpath from default.
[11:27] <zumbrunn> is it different?
[11:27] <zumbrunn> I thought that was the default
[11:28] <bslivka> I don't really know- How does one find out the default?
[11:28] <bslivka> there isn't any standard java libs in there
[11:28] <bslivka> it's just apple stuff
[11:29] <zumbrunn> yes
[11:29] <bslivka> since most java apps wouldn't use cocoa, I imagine that it isn't on the classpath unless it's put there
[11:29] <zumbrunn> not sure how to tell
[11:30] <bslivka> jar files are zip files. Nifty
[11:31] <bslivka> this may be the solution- The system/library/java is just unpackaged class files. I need an apple jar
[11:31] <zumbrunn> I'm really not sure
[11:32] <zumbrunn> I hope I'm not pointing you in a wrong direction
[11:32] <bslivka> And one spotlight search later, I get a handy app direct from apple. "Jar bundler"
[11:32] <bslivka> complete with fancy gui
[11:33] <bslivka> No, it doesn't do what I thought it did
[11:34] <bslivka> it turns .jar files into .app
[11:34] <bslivka> All this fuss. All I really need to do is call applescripts from helma
[11:36] <zumbrunn> somebody might already have done that
[11:37] <zumbrunn> maybe earl_ knows
[11:37] <zumbrunn> or ask quickly on the mailing list
[11:38] <bslivka> ah yes. I shall post on the mailing list
[11:38] <bslivka> Finally!
[11:38] <zumbrunn> hehe
[11:48] <bslivka> There!
[11:56] <bslivka> maybe this will work
[11:56] <bslivka> I could find the manifest file for helma.jar
[11:56] <bslivka> and add to its classpath...
[12:06] <bslivka> Pah! it worked
[12:06] <bslivka> Applescript and helma sittin' in a tree.
[12:07] <bslivka> seems a bit hackish, but it works
[12:08] <bslivka> http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2006/Jan/msg00466.html
[12:17] <bslivka> Well, time for bed. I'm pleased that I have accomplished something
[12:18] <bslivka> thanks for your help, Chris
[12:18] <bslivka> (good luck with your political revolution)
[21:39] <philmaker> If a create a new prototype directory, I am puzzled how that can be connected to root - without having to wrote any code.
[21:39] <philmaker> I looked at _children and accessName etc but I'm not seeing the answer.
[21:41] <philmaker> Also, what if you need more than a single prototype directory to be available directly under root?
[21:42] <philmaker> For example, if you want {root}/first and {root}/second to resolve to two different HopObject prototypes/directories?
[21:43] <philmaker> Do you define _children twice in Root's type.properties?
[21:54] <philmaker> Do I need to attach these objects to root manually in code, in onStart() - or should it be possible to have them be automatically attached via type.properties
[21:54] <philmaker> ?
[22:35] <philmaker> omg if the correct preferred answer is simply mountpoint I think I'm going to shoot myself.
[22:35] <philmaker> jk
[22:50] <philmaker> I think the answer to this so so totally simple I guess - somebody correct me if I'm wrong... but in Helma ANY and all HopObject instances must be instantiated directly in code? For example in onStart(). I sort of thought it would all be automatic.

 

 

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