Hopbot log for 2008-05-09 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2008-05-09:

[8:05] <hannesw> just created the new wiki space for helma ng:
[8:05] <hannesw> http://dev.helma.org/ng/
[8:05] <hannesw> everything comfortable with the name/url? we can still rename it while it's fresh.
[8:06] <hannesw> ... and i really really have to make some improvements to gobi now!
[8:06] <hannesw> (like the url/title decoupling)
[8:07] <hannesw> hi robert
[8:07] <grobert> hola
[8:07] <hannesw> just wrote something seconds ago: http://helma.zumbrunn.com/hopbot/
[8:07] <grobert> yes, i just read it
[8:08] <hannesw> :-)
[8:08] <grobert> so it's time to move ng-pages into the space, isn't it?
[8:09] <hannesw> yes, except... for those that are linked to?
[8:09] <hannesw> like the main Helma NG page, and the one about the module scopes?
[8:10] <hannesw> i think those should just have a short note and a link to /ng/...
[8:10] <hannesw> so maybe it's better to recreate than to move?
[8:11] <grobert> probably, otherwise we risk alot of broken links
[8:11] <hannesw> regarding the version pages (0.2 etc) i think they can be replaced (better) by trac milestones/issues
[8:11] <hannesw> http://dev.helma.org/trac/helma/roadmap
[8:12] <hannesw> btw, i stumbled across this:
[8:12] <hannesw> https://www.projectcaroline.net/main/
[8:13] <hannesw> this could be to helma hosting what google app engine is to python. except it's open source!
[8:13] <hannesw> very very exciting
[8:14] <grobert> sounds pretty interesting
[8:14] * grobert is still reading overview
[8:16] <hannesw> it's also a bit confusing .. takes a while to understand
[8:16] <hannesw> the site is a bit insider-ish, so a google query may help
[8:17] <hannesw> basically it's an infrastructure to run java apps in a cloud/virtualized grid of computers.
[8:18] <hannesw> it's a sun research project and they do experimental hosting, and you can also download the code, but I feel it's rather non-trivial to run your own hosting.
[8:19] <hannesw> there are special apis for file, database access in the grid: https://www.projectcaroline.net/doc/caroline/javadoc/
[8:20] <hannesw> and ant tasks and ide plugins to deploy apps
[8:21] <grobert> looks pretty complex at first sight
[8:22] <grobert> but nevertheless really interesting
[8:25] <hannesw> yep. i guess these things are supposed to be complex :-)
[8:25] <hannesw> here's another overview: http://blogs.sun.com/zippel/entry/project_caroline_video
[8:38] <grobert> thanks for the pointer, already watching
[8:45] <grobert> hannes, i have a question regarding ng shell
[8:45] <hannesw> go ahead
[8:46] <grobert> if i type in "this." and invoke the auto-completion, i'm getting java methods/properties
[8:46] <grobert> eg. "class"
[8:46] <hannesw> uh. strange.
[8:46] <grobert> where is this coming from?
[8:46] <hannesw> no idea :-)
[8:47] <grobert> i can even step down further, eg. this.class. <tab>
[8:47] <grobert> but i can't call any of this methods
[8:47] <grobert> actually i was trying to find a way to get the methods/properties defined by a module
[8:47] <hannesw> nope, i guess it's just a bug in the autocompletion
[8:49] <grobert> i see
[8:49] <grobert> and then another thing: if i import a module in the shell, and then change the module code
[8:50] <grobert> the module appearently isn't reloaded
[8:50] <grobert> so i have to re-import the module
[8:51] <grobert> i thought helma takes care of script reloading? did i misinterpret that?
[8:51] <grobert> or is this just the case when using the server, and not the shell?
[8:53] <hannesw> ok, i figured out the first bug.
[8:53] <hannesw> this actually evaluats to NOT_FOUND because we do property lookup, not evaluation
[8:54] <hannesw> (doing evaluation in the completor could have side effects)
[8:54] <hannesw> and the java methods just came from the wrapped NOT_FOUND object
[8:54] <grobert> ah, i see
[8:56] <hannesw> so actually you get the same effect with any string that isn't defined
[8:58] <grobert> right
[8:58] <hannesw> it's fixed in svn.
[8:58] <hannesw> the thing with modules: you have to re-import them
[8:58] <grobert> wow, that's fast :) thanks alot
[8:58] <hannesw> in the shell
[8:58] <hannesw> so if you call importModule() again, you get the fresh one
[8:59] <hannesw> well, the fix was simple
[8:59] <hannesw> btw, i implemented the gobi titles using form properties - also very simple:
[8:59] <hannesw> http://dev.helma.org/ng
[8:59] <hannesw> http://dev.helma.org/wiki
[9:00] <grobert> very nice!
[9:02] <hannesw> it works for now, we can still improve the input form
[9:02] <hannesw> and i didn't do this for wiki pages, only ordinary pages...
[9:04] <zumbrunn> that's fine
[9:11] <hannesw> chris: how to include the ng wiki in the nav bar?
[9:12] <hannesw> a "Helma NG" subitem to "Wiki"?
[9:12] <hannesw> we might/could also move it all to /wiki/ng/ ...
[9:13] <zumbrunn> Updates shouldn't be a subitem of the wiki anymore
[9:14] <hannesw> they don't need to be, but i got used to it :-)
[9:16] <zumbrunn> what do you mean by "moving all to /wiki/ng/ ?
[9:16] <zumbrunn> we should only have one wiki start page, probably
[9:18] <hannesw> moving the new /ng space to /wiki/ng
[9:18] <hannesw> yes, only one wiki start page, but /ng is a dedicated space / subspace
[9:18] <zumbrunn> sorry to backstep here, but what is the reason why we wanted a separate new wikik for ng?
[9:18] <hannesw> to avoid confusion
[9:19] <zumbrunn> will that not just make linking more difficult?
[9:19] <zumbrunn> (within wiki pages)
[9:19] <hannesw> don't think so. if we move it to /wiki/ng, we can link to pages using *ng/name* from the main wiki
[9:19] <zumbrunn> isn't the confusion just due to that fact that our wiki wasn't really a wiki
[9:19] <hannesw> also if it's in /ng.
[9:20] <zumbrunn> because it didn't have a start page, just a list
[9:20] <zumbrunn> the list is what makes it confusing, right?
[9:20] <hannesw> maybe. but I really like to have a dedicated space
[9:20] <zumbrunn> ok
[9:21] <hannesw> well i prefer it this way. don't know about other's preferences.
[9:21] <zumbrunn> I don't mind
[9:21] <hannesw> over the next days i'll post a __lot__ of pages about ng
[9:21] <hannesw> and if it's all mixed together, everything else will be burried.
[9:22] <hannesw> like what anton is doing.
[9:28] <zumbrunn> another thought.... maybe these pages you are posting should be a subspace in docs, not in wiki
[9:29] <zumbrunn> doesn't matter
[9:29] <zumbrunn> we'll be able to make things appear right with the way we design the overview pages
[9:30] <zumbrunn> whether it's for the docs or the wiki and we can link to the proper pages wherever they are
[11:44] <zumbrunn> I made an attempt at reshuffling the wiki navigation
[11:45] <zumbrunn> with first a wiki overview page, separate from the list of wiki pages
[11:45] <zumbrunn> and a dedicated entry for the Helma NG wiki
[11:46] <zumbrunn> and updates moved outside the wiki subitems
[11:50] <hannesw> hi chris
[11:50] <hannesw> i find the new navigation really weird
[11:50] <zumbrunn> hi
[11:50] <hannesw> especially the wiki overview page
[11:50] <hannesw> i think the wik should remain the wiki: /wiki
[11:50] <zumbrunn> yes
[11:51] <zumbrunn> just fiddling with it
[11:52] <hannesw> i think these kind of changes shouldn't be done this way. there should be proposals, mock ups, discussion
[11:52] <hannesw> of some kind
[11:53] <hannesw> and i really don't think the auto-redirects are a good idea. I'd just prefer to post a short message with a link
[11:53] <hannesw> and then eventually remove the old page.
[11:55] <zumbrunn> do we want to move these pages to the ng wiki, though?
[11:55] <zumbrunn> or do wen want to link from the ng wiki to the pages in the main wiki?
[11:59] <zumbrunn> could be call the original wiki something other than just "Wiki" in the navigation
[11:59] <zumbrunn> ?
[12:00] <zumbrunn> so we could have that along with a second entry called "Helma NG Wiki"?
[12:01] <zumbrunn> the problem with using the current wiki page as the start page for both wikis is that it contains the list of recently changed pages, which doesn't include the ones in the NG wiki
[12:19] <zumbrunn> it would be nice to be able to generate lists like the ones anton added to the wiki start page automatically
[12:20] <zumbrunn> based on tags and also based on items attached to pages other than the current one
[12:39] <hannesw> hi chris, i'm back. I'm sitting in the train and lost my connection.
[12:39] <hannesw> sorry if i was a bit harsh before :-)
[12:41] <hannesw> ok, lost my connection again.
[12:45] <hannesw_> sorry, losing my connection all the time...
[12:45] <hannesw_> well i don't see any problem with the fact that we have a wiki, and a dedicated space for helma ng
[12:46] <hannesw_> i think helma ng is so different that this makes perfect sense
[12:46] <hannesw_> and i see no problem with one being the wiki, and one the helma ng space
[12:47] <hannesw_> could we maybe add the helma ng link to the "project" group?
[12:47] <hannesw_> would that make sense?
[14:00] <hypersmil> are there some kind of video recordings available from the helma spring meeting?
[15:02] <zumbrunn___> hypersmil, I have some 6GB worth of video we recorded
[15:03] <zumbrunn___> but it would need to be combined with the slides and edited
[15:04] <zumbrunn___> and since the audio I'd german it's probably not worth the effort
[15:06] <zumbrunn___> the reason for the setup was to be able to get midnightmonster and bslivka involved
[15:06] <zumbrunn___> which didn't work out
[15:07] <zumbrunn___> (using iChat)
[15:11] <zumbrunn___> hannes, yes, listing the NG wiki under projects is fine as well

 

 

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