Hopbot log for 2008-06-25 - Helma IRC channel: #helma on irc.freenode.net

2008-06-25:

[2:05] <groovah> anyone know the default password for a fresh install of antville?
[3:14] <midnightmonster> finally read the article you linked earlier, zumbrunn. nice little article, and he actually articulates the Helma difference really well
[3:14] <midnightmonster> (in his follow-up comment)
[18:15] <decke> has anyone plans for an Helma IDE?
[18:19] <zumbrunn> it has come up several times
[18:19] <zumbrunn> of course, there is interest
[18:19] <zumbrunn> but nobody has actually takled it, I believe
[18:20] <zumbrunn> hannes once wrote a plug-in for jedit
[18:22] <decke> because i Eclipse Dynamic Language Toolkit which is yet another eclipse project
[18:22] <decke> +discovered
[18:22] <zumbrunn> decke, what would you want the IDE to do
[18:22] <zumbrunn> (that is helma specific) ?
[18:23] <decke> that is exactly my question...
[18:23] <decke> because actually JSEclipse is unsupported afaik
[18:23] <zumbrunn> one obvious bit is code completion for the various helma host objects and methods
[18:24] <decke> that would be one part of cause
[18:24] <decke> but i don't want to start such a project... i think that would need to much time that i don't have at the moment
[18:25] <decke> but the eclipse framework DLTK seems to actually work on an JS ide
[18:25] <decke> that would be a very good starting point for an helma ide
[18:26] <zumbrunn> ok, never looked at that yet
[18:26] <zumbrunn> I think integrating helma specific functionality into firebug would yield more interesting possibilities than the editor side of things
[18:26] <decke> i don't know firebug...
[18:26] <zumbrunn> the firebug plug-in for firefox
[18:27] <zumbrunn> http://getfirebug.com/
[18:27] <decke> interesting idea... but is that useable too?
[18:28] <zumbrunn> sure, why not?
[18:29] <zumbrunn> it would be more a debugger and shell
[18:29] <zumbrunn> less an editor
[18:29] <decke> okay then it's not what i expect from an IDE
[18:30] <zumbrunn> but even editing ca[pabilities would be possible with a matching framework on the server-side
[18:31] <decke> the code completion, highlighting and editing part should not be a real problem when i see the DLTK examples...
[18:31] <decke> they documented it very well.. http://wiki.eclipse.org/A_guide_to_building_a_DLTK-based_language_IDE
[18:32] <decke> and as i said there is an JavaScript IDE plugin on top of DLTK that just needs a few patches and should do very well for helma
[18:32] <decke> but the debugging stuff could be a bit more complicated
[18:32] <zumbrunn> yes, on the server-side, a good helma IDE would probably need to sit in-between rhino and the rhino debugger
[18:33] <decke> there is a rhino debugger?
[18:33] <zumbrunn> if I remember correctly, there is work being done on rhino to make exactly that kind of thing easier to implement
[18:33] <zumbrunn> yes, sure
[18:34] <zumbrunn> http://helma.zumbrunn.com/tools/debugger is what I mean
[18:34] <decke> oh cute... i never knew about that one
[18:36] <decke> how is that launched?
[18:36] <decke> is that a java applet?
[18:38] <zumbrunn> yeah, it only works locally, not when developing on a remote server
[18:40] <decke> that could be solved with X11 forwarding
[18:40] <decke> or an port forwarding if the debugger connects to an socket
[18:41] <zumbrunn> I don't know how it works internally
[18:43] <decke> so if someone steps up and want's to work on an Helma IDE there are quite a few interesting things to learn...
[18:48] <decke> with the helma port for freebsd i stumbled across a few problems...
[18:49] <decke> the bigest one was the dependency on jetty 5.x that is outdated and there is only jetty 6.x in the freebsd ports
[18:49] <zumbrunn> hmm
[18:49] <zumbrunn> does it make sense to pick things apart like this?
[18:50] <zumbrunn> should the bits that are part of the helma repository come from there
[18:50] <zumbrunn> instead of other ports?
[18:50] <decke> i only tried to build helma like every other port in FreeBSD - by source
[18:50] <decke> and with the ant buildscript
[18:50] <decke> but there is no jetty.jar in the source because its an external dependency
[18:51] <zumbrunn> huh?
[18:51] <zumbrunn> checking...
[18:51] <decke> the jetty.jar is only in the precompiled helma zips
[18:52] <zumbrunn> that's not what I see
[18:53] <zumbrunn> https://dev.helma.org/trac/helma/browser/helma/helma/trunk/lib
[18:53] <decke> take a look at the helma-1.6.2-src.tar.gz
[18:53] <decke> there is only apache-dom.jar and jimi.jar in the "lib" directory
[18:54] <decke> you are right in the helma-1.6.2.tar.gz there is everything you need - the jetty.jar and all the others
[18:55] <decke> that is where i stopped and i am not sure how to proceed... taking the source and all dependencies and compile it myself is the FreeBSD way
[18:55] * zumbrunn thinks that's a mistake
[18:55] <decke> taking the precompiled package and just unpack and move the files where they belong to is much easier but that's not the BSD way
[18:56] <zumbrunn> of course
[18:58] <zumbrunn> just tried... and like I thought, helma-1.6.2-src.tar.gz doesn't build since the jars are missing
[18:59] <decke> yes exactly what i stumbled across too
[19:00] <decke> and the problem is now how to interpret the situation...
[19:00] <decke> if the missing jars are some kind of "external dependencies"
[19:00] <decke> then helma should be comfortable with nearly whatever version of them is out there
[19:01] <zumbrunn> the src packages for the 1.6.2 release are borked, that's the situation
[19:01] <decke> but with an jetty 5.x dependency that is very hard to follow from the freebsd ports situation
[19:01] <zumbrunn> and nobody noticed/tested until now
[19:02] <decke> that would be my preferred solution ;o)
[19:02] <zumbrunn> I'm guilty of only having tested helma-1.6.2.tar.gz myself
[19:02] <zumbrunn> didn't test the src one
[19:03] <decke> so helma does not have any external dependencies on any library?
[19:03] <decke> or "should have"
[19:03] <decke> rhino might be such a candidate...
[19:04] <zumbrunn> yes it does have subversion dependencies, but they would be resolved when checking out from subversion
[19:04] <zumbrunn> and they are for the modules, helmatools, jala etc
[19:04] <zumbrunn> nothing with the jars
[19:05] <zumbrunn> the src.tar.gz file I guess wouldn't have any dependencies at all anymore
[19:05] <zumbrunn> (which is also one reason why it doesn't make for a very interesting freebsd port)
[19:06] <zumbrunn> (since the install location doesn't matter and there are no dependencies)
[19:07] <zumbrunn> the only interesting bit where the port could integrate helma better with freebsd is in connection with init.d, maybe
[19:07] <decke> that's for sure but it would better integrate into the SystemV startup scripts
[19:08] <zumbrunn> is that new in 7?
[19:08] <decke> you mean rc.d?
[19:08] <zumbrunn> yes
[19:09] <decke> no that's at least since FreeBSD 4.x
[19:09] <zumbrunn> hmm, haven't stumbled across that
[19:10] <decke> erm... there is no init.d - never been
[19:10] <decke> they use rc.d and if i remember correctly that's called System V ....
[19:11] <decke> you know that for sure... everytime you look into /etc/rc.conf and /etc/rc.d/ or /usr/local/etc/rc.d/
[19:12] <zumbrunn> I meant inetd
[19:13] <decke> isn't inetd outdated? nowadays everything runs as a daemon by itself
[19:14] <zumbrunn> quite possible, it wasn't (at least not completely) with freebsd 6
[19:20] <decke> okay then i build an fixed helma-1.6.2-src.tar.gz by myself to complete the port and wait for 1.6.3 until the packages are fixed then
[19:21] <decke> should i file a bug for that too?
[19:22] <zumbrunn> it doesn't hurt, of course
[19:22] <zumbrunn> you don't need to, though
[19:22] <zumbrunn> I'll talk to hannes about it and see what we want to do
[19:22] <midnightmonster> *catching up* we definitely wouldn't want to be integrated with inetd--antithetical to the way helma runs
[19:22] <zumbrunn> maybe we just fix the 1.6.2-src packages
[19:23] <decke> okay then i don't file one... i won't forget though
[19:23] <midnightmonster> and for IDE, Aptana's JS editor seems better than the JSEclipse one
[19:23] <midnightmonster> but it doesn't yet have full language support--nothing free/open source does.
[19:24] <decke> yeah but aptana is bloated and i don't know what the future will be....
[19:24] <midnightmonster> in what sense is it bloated that Eclipse in general isn't?
[19:24] <zumbrunn> plus aptana is now gpl
[19:24] <midnightmonster> and it's open source
[19:24] * zumbrunn doesn't like the gpl
[19:25] <decke> i will have a closer look at the Eclipse DLTK JavaScript IDE
[19:25] <midnightmonster> but we're only talking about tools, here. it doesn't become part of your app, so it hardly matters whether it's GPL or BSD or what
[19:25] <zumbrunn> sure, still, I just don't like it :-)
[19:25] <decke> that sounds quite interesting but it's very new
[19:26] <decke> sure they are all just "tools"
[19:26] <decke> KDE is also an tool - one which i hate of course
[19:26] <midnightmonster> AFAIK, Steve Yegge's JS2 emacs mode has the best language support for JS in the free world.
[19:27] <midnightmonster> (KDE is the whole friggin desktop and gui kit, and it's always been ugly as sin)
[19:27] <decke> and GNOME is bloated as hell - that's why i am an Xfce user
[19:28] <midnightmonster> *Still trying to fathom how you find eclipse acceptable*
[19:28] <midnightmonster> (I find it acceptable, but I'm content to use gnome)
[19:28] <decke> that's a compromise... you can't win all the time...
[19:29] <decke> but that is why i use Eclipse with JSEclipse and not aptana
[19:29] <decke> that helps a lot
[19:29] <midnightmonster> your experience doesn't match mine at all. aptana for me is no slower than Eclipse in general
[19:30] <decke> nowadays that does not matter that much ... but until about 6 months ago i worked on an VIA EPIA 1Ghz
[19:30] <midnightmonster> (and last time I tried jseclipse, it just didn't work well--hardly an advantage to run badly faster)
[19:30] <decke> there you really have to be carefully with what app you use
[19:30] <midnightmonster> I bet. I can't imagine how you lived with eclipse
[19:30] <midnightmonster> I'd have had to learn emacs
[19:30] <zumbrunn> specially the js editor in aptana is slower than jseclipse, not aptana in general as much
[19:30] <decke> exactly...
[19:31] <midnightmonster> (which I sure wish I could get around to doing)
[19:31] <decke> and the aptana complection code is slow as hell
[19:31] <zumbrunn> yep
[19:31] <midnightmonster> hm. I guess I'll have to try jseclipse again
[19:31] <decke> and it does some very intensive things at startup that locks up eclipse for quite a few seconds
[19:32] <midnightmonster> (after all the seconds you spend "loading workbench" :-)
[19:32] <decke> the sad thing about jseclipse is that it has been aquired by Adobe
[19:32] <midnightmonster> interesting!
[19:32] <midnightmonster> hadn't heard about that
[19:33] <decke> and they do their best to make it stink like all their other products
[19:33] <midnightmonster> adobe: where good apps go to die
[19:33] <zumbrunn> yeah, it hasn't really evolved since then
[19:33] <zumbrunn> decke, are you saying they made it worse?
[19:33] <midnightmonster> just brought up the site... "Update: JSEclipse prerelease 2 released on April 2, 2007"
[19:33] <midnightmonster> jeeze
[19:34] <decke> no because they simply haven't updated it since then
[19:34] <decke> but i have seen a newer version number somewhere
[19:34] <zumbrunn> they didn't really do anything to it
[19:34] <decke> just could not download it or something like that
[19:34] <zumbrunn> right, ok
[19:35] <decke> http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/jseclipse/
[19:35] <decke> you have to have an adobe account for downloading... which i have created if i remember correctly
[19:36] <decke> but something was totally wrong with that
[19:36] <decke> if someone wants to try it i can provide the the plugin
[19:37] <midnightmonster> I have an adobe account
[19:37] <midnightmonster> (and I <3 FIOS)
[19:37] <decke> that's really strange...
[19:38] <midnightmonster> (FIOS = brand name of fiber-optic broadband service in the US)
[19:38] <decke> they have an installation notes file for JSEclipse that requires me to donwload Flash
[19:38] <decke> are they kind of totally stupid ?
[19:38] <zumbrunn> hehe
[19:39] <decke> i am not sure if i want to try that plugin on my machine...
[19:39] <zumbrunn> still using jseclipse 1.5.5 myself
[19:39] <decke> yeah that version rocks...
[19:39] <decke> good that i have an ubuntu system where i could play with that strange stuff...
[19:40] <midnightmonster> (so why is "not knowing about the future" favoring a product that died in the bowels of adobe a year ago over one that's actively developed?)
[19:40] <zumbrunn> "not knowing about the future"?
[19:41] <decke> the same with cars... you have one that is not that pretty and big - but it works and there is no need to change it... although it might break in the future....
[19:41] <decke> but why buy an big SUV if you like small cars?
[19:42] <decke> i better use JSEclipse 1.5.5 until the eclipse api changes break it...
[19:43] <decke> and maybe the Eclipse JavaScript IDE improves fast enough to be competitive with aptana
[19:44] <zumbrunn> just checked, the version currently available from adobe's site is still 1.5.5
[19:44] <zumbrunn> (jseclipse_plugin_040207.zip)
[19:45] <zumbrunn> unless they changed something without changing the version number
[19:45] <decke> oh that was the problem then
[19:45] <decke> JSEclipse prerelease 2 released on April 2, 2007
[19:45] <decke> yeah they gave them a new "version number" Prerelease 2
[19:46] <decke> and never updated it since then...
[19:48] <zumbrunn> goofy
[19:57] <zumbrunn> decke, I just checked older helma release src packages and the jars seem to always have been missing
[19:58] <zumbrunn> can't the port fetch directly from the subversion repository?
[19:59] <decke> if i patch the build.xml it should be possible
[19:59] <zumbrunn> no, I don't mean just the jars
[19:59] <decke> i think ant has an svn plugin that should be what i need
[19:59] <zumbrunn> I mean getting the source from the repository instead of the src.tar.gz file
[20:00] <decke> oh no downloading everything from svn would not be a good idea i think... that way the port would never build if the svn repository migrates is down or whatever
[20:00] <zumbrunn> ok
[20:01] <decke> but i could download both archives
[20:03] <decke> but then i don't know what the src part is really good for...
[20:04] <decke> because java bytecode is java bytecode... and will not get better, different or worse if i compile it myself in the port
[20:04] <decke> or just take the helma.jar from the binary package
[20:07] <decke> but on the other hand if i would need to patch the helma code anywhere... because of an bug in BSD or whatever ... i have to compile it in the port
[20:07] <decke> thats a good reason to not use the binary packages
[20:08] <decke> i will try to discuss that on ##freebsd
[20:15] <decke> off topic: now where is that Telekom Austria commercial that they are responsible for sending the UEFA Euro 2008 to all of us?
[20:15] <decke> because their satellite transponder is dead *g*
[20:59] <midnightmonster> is there a way to get a list of Hop prototypes defined in an application?
[21:26] <midnightmonster> that'd be app.getPrototypes()

 

 

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