2008-09-28:

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[21:23] <bard> folks, does anyone have experience with existdb (exist.sf.net)? it looks like an option to take helma's xml-based persistence beyond prototyping stage
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[23:05] <zumbrunn> bard, I remember looking at it some years ago...
[23:07] <zumbrunn> now, with helma-ng, it would probably be quite easy to integrate
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[00:01] <bard> cool
[00:01] <bard> how far is helma-ng from public consumption?
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[01:46] <bard> zumbrunn: I see existdb can be deployed as a library too (http://exist.sourceforge.net/deployment.html#N10431), so it should not be too hard to integrate it with helma 1.6 either
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[02:16] <bard> persevere looks interesting too
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[09:27] <zumbrunn> hi philmaker, I see bard just asked about persevere a few hours ago
[09:27] <zumbrunn> you have experience with that, right?
[09:28] <philmaker> I haven't seen that yet - I'll take a look
[09:30] <philmaker> Oh it's right above
[09:30] <zumbrunn> well, he didn't actually ask a question
[09:30] <zumbrunn> just pointed it out as interesting
[09:31] <zumbrunn> bard: regarding helma-ng.... it will never be more ready for "public consumption", it's just "production use" that it isn't "ready" for, being alpha
[09:31] <zumbrunn> but it is the best time to look at it, work with it and help shape it
[09:31] <philmaker> Persevere is interesting - but when I first worked with it several months ago it did indeed require perseverance.
[09:33] <philmaker> yeo
[09:33] <philmaker> yep
[09:33] <zumbrunn> with helma-ng, pluging all kinds of data backends behind helma should become very simple
[09:33] <philmaker> excellent
[09:34] <philmaker> I have recently used Jaxer and I find Sling and Jackrabbit to be very interesting.
[09:34] <philmaker> I have recently also dabbled with a custom Rhino server.
[09:35] <zumbrunn> yeah, jackrabbit would be on that list of data backends as well
[09:36] <philmaker> righto - sounds great
[09:36] <philmaker> I have glanced at the Helma NG stuff lately.
[09:38] <zumbrunn> currently, there is the super slim filestore module, plus hibernate
[09:38] <zumbrunn> http://github.com/hns/helma-ng/tree/master/modules/helma/filestore.js
[09:38] <philmaker> Chris, I do want to chat with you more. It's kind of late here and I'm having some of these: http://www.sierranevada.com/beers/paleale.html
[09:40] <zumbrunn> the darker the better
[09:40] <zumbrunn> http://github.com/hns/helma-ng/tree/hibernate/modules/helma/hibernate.js
[09:42] <philmaker> I'll probably email you within the next several days about Helma NG, and what I desire in a Javascript server.
[09:42] <philmaker> I bought this book: http://www.amazon.com/Revolution-Manifesto-Ron-Paul/dp/0446537519/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1222587613&sr=8-1
[09:42] <philmaker> tonight
[09:44] <? zumbrunn is thinking whether he should get that, too
[09:44] <philmaker> [09:45] <zumbrunn> I think I kind of know where I am going to disagree
[09:45] <zumbrunn> but I should probably read it
[09:45] <philmaker> I'll listen.
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[09:47] <zumbrunn> well, in a nutshell, I think ron paul, while cleaning up the federal system, would give to much free reign to the capitalistic free market
[09:47] <zumbrunn> bard, you are in the right channel
[09:47] <philmaker> well yes
[09:48] <zumbrunn> it just looks like you are not
[09:48] <bard> lol
[09:49] <zumbrunn> for a shift towards a libertarian system, there also needs to be a transformation in society
[09:50] <zumbrunn> of course, that might happen as a result of the way ron paul would change the federal government
[09:50] <zumbrunn> but that's not likely to be the case, I think
[09:51] <philmaker> Regarding current events in the US and the wall street rescue and the US debt  - it is becoming more and more evident that this US is losing it's sovereignty. Does Switzerland have any national debt.
[09:51] <philmaker> ?
[09:51] <zumbrunn> (no matter whether "libertarian" is flavored "left" or "right")
[09:51] <philmaker> One of the reasons we are preparing the bail out package is to assure foreign investors.
[09:51] <zumbrunn> about 100 billion
[09:52] <philmaker> We have about 70x times that (one the books)
[09:52] <philmaker> one the books
[09:52] <zumbrunn> yeah, but you also have 40x the amount of people
[09:52] <philmaker> on (d'oh)
[09:52] <philmaker> well ok
[09:53] <philmaker> maybe it's ok for the US to have a large debt and a large military
[09:56] <zumbrunn> well, debt really is bad, if it is to big
[09:57] <philmaker> but it's never too big if you have a large military
[09:57] <zumbrunn> the concept of debt in the financial systems at that level are a funny thing, anyway
[09:58] <zumbrunn> if it is to big, you won't be able to afford the large military anymore
[09:58] <philmaker> [09:59] <zumbrunn> no, kidding aside, debt is bad...
[09:59] <philmaker> yeah
[10:00] <zumbrunn> if it gets out of hand, the US could slip towards the status of a "developing country", almost
[10:00] <philmaker> Have you seen the things that are happening with out banking?
[10:00] <philmaker> our banking?
[10:00] <zumbrunn> like what happend to the sowjet union countries
[10:01] <zumbrunn> yes, of course
[10:01] <philmaker> Some of our major banks are failing...
[10:02] <philmaker> ? sowjet union countries ?
[10:02] <zumbrunn> you can send a thank you letter to phil gramm
[10:02] <philmaker> [10:02] <philmaker> My Texas senator
[10:03] <zumbrunn> yeah, like russia, you know, that sowjet union
[10:03] <philmaker> Hmm.
[10:04] <philmaker> I don't know anything about that - and everything I seen is indeed in Russian.
[10:05] <zumbrunn> one could easily argue that the reason for the collapse of the sowjet union was their debt
[10:06] <philmaker> sowjet union = soviet union?
[10:06] <philmaker> We call it soviet union
[10:06] <philmaker> that's interesting
[10:11] <philmaker> Chris, I'm glad to see you here. I'm interested in following up with you here or via email about Helma NG and some customer Rhino stuff I'm playing with - or that I'd like to see in Helma NG.
[10:25] <zumbrunn> yeah, sowjet union == soviet union
[10:33] <philmaker> The new MacBook is supposed to come mod-October here. I am trying to wait patiently.
[10:34] <philmaker> The new MacBook is supposed to come mid-October here. I am trying to wait patiently.
[10:35] <philmaker> It is supposed to have LED backlighting. I hope the display is better than the current MacBook.
[10:36] <philmaker> I have owned several Macs with quality LCD screens and the display/backlighting in the MacBook (consumer) is pretty cheap.
[10:36] <zumbrunn> the problem is that stupid glossy screen, I think
[10:36] <zumbrunn> no wonder they can't light the thing
[10:37] <philmaker> That is perhaps part of it - but I can adjust to that.
[10:37] <zumbrunn> I probably could adjust to it, too - but I don't want to
[10:38] <philmaker> I did use a MacBook for a short time and the display was uneven and very annoying when wokring with lines of code.
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[15:32] <bard> chris: following up from yesterday, I managed to get hold of existdb from helma using the java api (from js, though). I'm happily running xpath queries in the app's onStart() now
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[15:54] <zumbrunn> bard, cool
[15:54] <zumbrunn> did you take a look at the filestore.js code?
[15:55] <zumbrunn> http://github.com/zumbrunn/helma-ng/tree/master/modules/helma/filestore.js
[16:00] <bard> haven't taken a look at helma-ng at all so far... is its status published anywhere? I've had a look at trac but it only shows a handful of tickets in the milestones for 0.3 and 0.4
[16:00] <bard> does filestore.js store json?
[16:02] <zumbrunn> yes, it serializes to json
[16:03] <zumbrunn> but if you look at the code, it would kind of show the way of how one could put other data backends, like existdb, behind helma-ng
[16:03] <zumbrunn> (in a way where js objects become automatically mapped against the data backend)
[16:04] <bard> cool, but see above question on helma-ng status, I'm more than fine with tinkering with the framework but I still want to deliver an app in the meantime
[16:04] <zumbrunn> the easiest way to get helma-ng is to simply go here:
[16:04] <zumbrunn> http://github.com/hns/helma-ng/tree/master/
[16:05] <zumbrunn> and click the download link
[16:05] <zumbrunn> then build it with "ant package"
[16:06] <bard> how complete is it compared to helma 1.6.*?
[16:06] <zumbrunn> it is "different"
[16:06] <zumbrunn> the goal with helma-ng is a much smaller core
[16:06] <zumbrunn> doing less in java
[16:07] <zumbrunn> and instead adding more js modules around it
[16:07] <bard> I like that
[16:07] <bard> I'm already trying to stay away from java as much as possible
[16:07] <bard> I'd just like to avoid being blocked by chunks of basic functionality missing
[16:08] <zumbrunn> in a sense, the core works perfectly well for "production", but that of course depends on you requirements
[16:08] <zumbrunn> and since it is alpha, everything is still subject to change
[16:08] <bard> I'll try it
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[16:26] <bard> btw, is helma 1.6 moving to github too?
[16:50] <zumbrunn> I think it would be a good idea
[16:50] <zumbrunn> what do you think?
[16:51] <bard> I'm moving all my projects there, I guess that's a "yes"
[16:51] <zumbrunn> [17:09] <bard> is there any glaring error here http://helma.pastebin.com/d3b3bd6c ? I thought defineLibraryScope would make 'xpath' persistent across requests, but it still shows up as undefined when I call actions...
[17:16] <zumbrunn> what happens when you move defineLibraryScope('xpath'); into the onStart function?
[17:18] <bard> app.log(xpath) at the beginning of an action says "